Triple tail limit coming

[meaux fishing]

Originally Posted by Duck Butter

MG 'proved' nothing, he issued a statement from his point of view and I responded

You even said it when you were talking about tuna "Yellowfin tuna stocks had to be assessed..."

[Duck Butter]

Originally Posted by meaux fishing

You even said it when you were talking about tuna "Yellowfin tuna stocks had to be assessed..."

as are tripletail stocks

Again, there are NO LIMITS on tripletail right now in Louisiana

[MathGeek]

Originally Posted by Duck Butter

as are tripletail stocks

Again, there are NO LIMITS on tripletail right now in Louisiana

You mean there are no infringements on Constitutional liberties by the executive branch upon properly licensed anglers.

If there is no scientific data supporting the necessity of infringements on Constitutional liberties, then why should the executive branch be empowered to act unilaterally to make certain harvest actions into criminal offenses?

To be sure, the legislative branch does not need sound science to support its laws, it is empowered by the Constitution to make stupid laws if it desires. But the legislative branch has given certain regulatory authority to the executive branch (LDWF) but only to enact scientifically sound and necessary restrictions on the Constitutional liberties of Louisiana citizens.

LDWF making new regulations because LDWF scientists opine they are a good idea is a failure of separation of powers and a bad approach to wildlife managers. There needs to be scientific data that can be reviewed, assessed, and commented on by independent experts and stakeholders.

Making new regulations with criminal penalties without sound science is failure of due process.

[Top Dawg]

Originally Posted by MathGeek

You mean there are no infringements on Constitutional liberties by the executive branch upon properly licensed anglers.

If there is no scientific data supporting the necessity of infringements on Constitutional liberties, then why should the executive branch be empowered to act unilaterally to make certain harvest actions into criminal offenses?

To be sure, the legislative branch does not need sound science to support its laws, it is empowered by the Constitution to make stupid laws if it desires. But the legislative branch has given certain regulatory authority to the executive branch (LDWF) but only to enact scientifically sound and necessary restrictions on the Constitutional liberties of Louisiana citizens.

LDWF making new regulations because LDWF scientists opine they are a good idea is a failure of separation of powers and a bad approach to wildlife managers. There needs to be scientific data that can be reviewed, assessed, and commented on by independent experts and stakeholders.

Making new regulations with criminal penalties without sound science is failure of due process.

I believe that's the best way it can be put. Thanks mathgeek.

[meaux fishing]

Originally Posted by MathGeek

You mean there are no infringements on Constitutional liberties by the executive branch upon properly licensed anglers.

If there is no scientific data supporting the necessity of infringements on Constitutional liberties, then why should the executive branch be empowered to act unilaterally to make certain harvest actions into criminal offenses?

To be sure, the legislative branch does not need sound science to support its laws, it is empowered by the Constitution to make stupid laws if it desires. But the legislative branch has given certain regulatory authority to the executive branch (LDWF) but only to enact scientifically sound and necessary restrictions on the Constitutional liberties of Louisiana citizens.

LDWF making new regulations because LDWF scientists opine they are a good idea is a failure of separation of powers and a bad approach to wildlife managers. There needs to be scientific data that can be reviewed, assessed, and commented on by independent experts and stakeholders.

Making new regulations with criminal penalties without sound science is failure of due process.

The crazy part is that the LDWF has recommended no regulations, so that the sound science says it is not necessary. But for some reason the commission is still pushing it

[Top Dawg]

Originally Posted by meaux fishing

The crazy part is that the LDWF has recommended no regulations, so that the sound science says it is not necessary. But for some reason the commission is still pushing it

Ie. cca. "Fox in the hen house".

[Duck Butter]

Originally Posted by MathGeek

You mean there are no infringements on Constitutional liberties by the executive branch upon properly licensed anglers.

If there is no scientific data supporting the necessity of infringements on Constitutional liberties, then why should the executive branch be empowered to act unilaterally to make certain harvest actions into criminal offenses?

To be sure, the legislative branch does not need sound science to support its laws, it is empowered by the Constitution to make stupid laws if it desires. But the legislative branch has given certain regulatory authority to the executive branch (LDWF) but only to enact scientifically sound and necessary restrictions on the Constitutional liberties of Louisiana citizens.

LDWF making new regulations because LDWF scientists opine they are a good idea is a failure of separation of powers and a bad approach to wildlife managers. There needs to be scientific data that can be reviewed, assessed, and commented on by independent experts and stakeholders.

Making new regulations with criminal penalties without sound science is failure of due process.

I will comment on this part because its what I know and what i do for a living, the other part above that is something that needs to be taken up with your congressperson or Rush Limbaugh I don't know, sounds like something that came off the NRA website

"There needs to be scientific data that can be reviewed, assessed, and commented on by independent experts and stakeholders."

As you know MG, the sceintfic data IS accessible, all you have to do is ask. You have gotten fisheries data from LDWF before And

"There needs to be scientific data that can be reviewed, assessed, and commented on by independent experts and stakeholders."

Well that is where the meetings I have been harping on come into play. You have a right to go and voice your opinion. A matter of fact, your opinion is welcomed at these forums. They ask for them. Not sure why everyone is not grasping this

[Duck Butter]

Long post here but bare with me and all this can be found in any wildlife management or ecology textbook, and probably google and wikipedia its all 101 stuff:

You can not get an exact population count on wildlife. You have to make estimations based on the data you have available, its just one of those things and is why statistics are used extensively for wildlife populations, because they are only estimates. One of these methods is called the 'mark-recapture method'. This is what was used in this study and where this statement came from and where the number came from:

"Cresson told commissioners the recapture rate of tagged tripletail is 2 1/2 times higher than with other game fish, which, he said, is an indication of how vulnerable the fish are to over-harvest."

So, its obvious that studies were done, there goes that notion that 'there are no studies' In this type of study, you catch all the individuals and mark them (tag in the ear of a deer, tag in the fish, clip the toe of a rat, color band a bird, etc.) then you go back and you 'trap' again. The numbers of recaptures is then plugged into a formula and you come out with a number which estimates the population. Its not that cut and dry for all species but these are the basics, and something that is migratory like a tripletail will be very hard to estimate the population, BUT what IS very very important here is that which is bolded above (2 2/2 times more susceptible to harvest) And THAT is where the 'red flags' come up.

and to Spunt Drag and others who keep saying 'who cares about their minimum age at sexual maturity', that is one of the most important factors in setting regulations. You have to protect your stock. Its why there are minimum lenght requirements for game fish - plain and simple, a tripletail is not any different.

[MathGeek]

Originally Posted by Duck Butter

"There needs to be scientific data that can be reviewed, assessed, and commented on by independent experts and stakeholders."

As you know MG, the sceintfic data IS accessible, all you have to do is ask. You have gotten fisheries data from LDWF before And

Actually, LDWF has rejected every request for data we have made of them. In contrast, other states like Colorado, have quickly provided reams of data (many megabytes in conveniently formatted spreadsheets) in response to every data request we have made. I think we have published three different papers on our detailed analysis and interpretation of fisheries data from Colorado Parks and Wildlife. But so far, LDWF has not been willing to share.

Originally Posted by Duck Butter

"There needs to be scientific data that can be reviewed, assessed, and commented on by independent experts and stakeholders."

Well that is where the meetings I have been harping on come into play. You have a right to go and voice your opinion. A matter of fact, your opinion is welcomed at these forums. They ask for them. Not sure why everyone is not grasping this

Any data presented at the meetings is really not the kind or quantity that can be reviewed and assessed by independent experts and stakeholders. See below.

Originally Posted by Duck Butter

"Cresson told commissioners the recapture rate of tagged tripletail is 2 1/2 times higher than with other game fish, which, he said, is an indication of how vulnerable the fish are to over-harvest."

This is junk science. First of all, there is no description of the study design, sample sizes, or actual data. There is just a comparison of recapture rates with "other game fish." Which "other game fish?" Were there comparable delays and comparable recapture efforts with the TT and the "other game fish?"

Furthermore, a relatively high recapture rate does not necessarily imply vulnerability to over fishing. It simply means that the specimens that are captured once are more likely to be captured again. This does not indicate that the entire population is subject to likely capture in the first place. There may be large parts of the population that are not subject to easy capture (due to habitat or feeding preferences).

Originally Posted by Duck Butter

So, its obvious that studies were done, there goes that notion that 'there are no studies'

The issue is not whether there are secret, unpublished studies that policy makers cite to support their exercise of power, but whether the data and methodologies are published with sufficient detail to allow review, assessment, and comment by independent scientists and stakeholders.

Citing unpublished studies or data is not scientifically based policy making. It is a recipe for any policy the power brokers wish to implement based on pseudoscience.

Cite a source for the published data. You should know that throwing out a single numerical conclusion (2.5 times the recapture rate of other species) is a conclusion, it is not the data or methodology needed to assess the validity of the conclusion or the inferences that are based on it.

Originally Posted by Duck Butter

and to Spunt Drag and others who keep saying 'who cares about their minimum age at sexual maturity', that is one of the most important factors in setting regulations. You have to protect your stock. Its why there are minimum lenght requirements for game fish - plain and simple, a tripletail is not any different.

Then explain why the immature redfish and black drum support higher take limits than the sexually mature fish? Then why are there no length limits for many species of game fish? Where is the science to justify adding the tripletail to the list of more highly regulated species requiring a minimum length limit?

What is different about white trout, gafftops, channel catfish, croaker, freshwater drum, spanish mackerel, and jack cravelle that these species don't need the possession limit to be lowered to five?

Arbitrary, unsupported harvest restrictions on tripletail raise valid concerns that fishing rights will gradually be whittled away by unsupported "conservation" concerns. Once this proposed restriction is accomplished, they will set their sights on the next area where they can restrict liberty without a soundly supported scientific need.

[Spunt Drag]

Originally Posted by MathGeek

Once this proposed restriction is accomplished, they will set their sights on the next area where they can restrict liberty without a soundly supported scientific need.

Once again. EXACTLY!

[AceArcher]

Originally Posted by MathGeek

Actually, LDWF has rejected every request for data we have made of them. In contrast, other states like Colorado, have quickly provided reams of data (many megabytes in conveniently formatted spreadsheets) in response to every data request we have made. I think we have published three different papers on our detailed analysis and interpretation of fisheries data from Colorado Parks and Wildlife. But so far, LDWF has not been willing to share.



Any data presented at the meetings is really not the kind or quantity that can be reviewed and assessed by independent experts and stakeholders. See below.



This is junk science. First of all, there is no description of the study design, sample sizes, or actual data. There is just a comparison of recapture rates with "other game fish." Which "other game fish?" Were there comparable delays and comparable recapture efforts with the TT and the "other game fish?"

Furthermore, a relatively high recapture rate does not necessarily imply vulnerability to over fishing. It simply means that the specimens that are captured once are more likely to be captured again. This does not indicate that the entire population is subject to likely capture in the first place. There may be large parts of the population that are not subject to easy capture (due to habitat or feeding preferences).




The issue is not whether there are secret, unpublished studies that policy makers cite to support their exercise of power, but whether the data and methodologies are published with sufficient detail to allow review, assessment, and comment by independent scientists and stakeholders.

Citing unpublished studies or data is not scientifically based policy making. It is a recipe for any policy the power brokers wish to implement based on pseudoscience.

Cite a source for the published data. You should know that throwing out a single numerical conclusion (2.5 times the recapture rate of other species) is a conclusion, it is not the data or methodology needed to assess the validity of the conclusion or the inferences that are based on it.



Then explain why the immature redfish and black drum support higher take limits than the sexually mature fish? Then why are there no length limits for many species of game fish? Where is the science to justify adding the tripletail to the list of more highly regulated species requiring a minimum length limit?

What is different about white trout, gafftops, channel catfish, croaker, freshwater drum, spanish mackerel, and jack cravelle that these species don't need the possession limit to be lowered to five?

Arbitrary, unsupported harvest restrictions on tripletail raise valid concerns that fishing rights will gradually be whittled away by unsupported "conservation" concerns. Once this proposed restriction is accomplished, they will set their sights on the next area where they can restrict liberty without a soundly supported scientific need.

On an unrelated side note MathGeek, I really need to introduce you to my Father. He has a master's degree in Nuclear Physics and another in Teaching, I do believe you two could quite possibly get along very well.

[Duck Butter]

Originally Posted by MathGeek

Actually, LDWF has rejected every request for data we have made of them. In contrast, other states like Colorado, have quickly provided reams of data (many megabytes in conveniently formatted spreadsheets) in response to every data request we have made. I think we have published three different papers on our detailed analysis and interpretation of fisheries data from Colorado Parks and Wildlife. But so far, LDWF has not been willing to share.

You can get the data, believe me. Didnt I offer you some oyster cultch data once and you said don't worry you had gotten it from LDWF? But yes, you have to keep on them about it and maybe go up there and introduce yourself and let them know why you are interested. These data are very very large files and they can't just stop what they are doing and email everyone gigabytes full of fish data.


Any data presented at the meetings is really not the kind or quantity that can be reviewed and assessed by independent experts and stakeholders. See below.

This is junk science. First of all, there is no description of the study design, sample sizes, or actual data. There is just a comparison of recapture rates with "other game fish." Which "other game fish?" Were there comparable delays and comparable recapture efforts with the TT and the "other game fish?"

You are going to have to get a link to these studies and that will answer your questions, I am sorry you were not in the loop of the peer review process, but neither were 99.9% of fishermen


Furthermore, a relatively high recapture rate does not necessarily imply vulnerability to over fishing. It simply means that the specimens that are captured once are more likely to be captured again. This does not indicate that the entire population is subject to likely capture in the first place. There may be large parts of the population that are not subject to easy capture (due to habitat or feeding preferences).

All speculation, you are going to have to speak with the publisher of the paper(s). He/she will probably tell you everything you want to hear. A high capture rate (ease of capture) is exactly what is raising concern.


The issue is not whether there are secret, unpublished studies that policy makers cite to support their exercise of power, but whether the data and methodologies are published with sufficient detail to allow review, assessment, and comment by independent scientists and stakeholders.

Find out what studies they are basing this off, and then go to the meeting and comment

Citing unpublished studies or data is not scientifically based policy making. It is a recipe for any policy the power brokers wish to implement based on pseudoscience.

Who says they are unpublished?

Cite a source for the published data. You should know that throwing out a single numerical conclusion (2.5 times the recapture rate of other species) is a conclusion, it is not the data or methodology needed to assess the validity of the conclusion or the inferences that are based on it.

You know that with the scientific process, you can not just throw out numbers. The article where those numbers came from was not a scientific journal article and I am sure there was limited space in that article to add their introduction, methods, and statistical analyses.

Then explain why the immature redfish and black drum support higher take limits than the sexually mature fish?
See below, and add that it really depends on the ecology of the fish - where it spends its time and its movements as a juvenile and as an adult.

Then why are there no length limits for many species of game fish?
It can be based on their age at sexual maturity, lifespan, how many are targeted each year, and a combination of some or all. For instance, red snapper take many years to reach sexual maturity so they have a different set of regs than say a mahi mahi which grows at an incredible rate and lives a short lifespan (they can reach 25 lbs in one year)

Where is the science to justify adding the tripletail to the list of more highly regulated species requiring a minimum length limit?
Hasn't this been discussed?


What is different about white trout, gafftops, channel catfish, croaker, freshwater drum, spanish mackerel, and jack cravelle that these species don't need the possession limit to be lowered to five?

If there was a real trend towards targeting these species on a broad scale, the limits would certainly be looked into, but as of now there are no concerns with that, whereas tripletail are gaining in popularity and their ease of capture is what is drawing concern

Arbitrary, unsupported harvest restrictions on tripletail raise valid concerns that fishing rights will gradually be whittled away by unsupported "conservation" concerns. Once this proposed restriction is accomplished, they will set their sights on the next area where they can restrict liberty without a soundly supported scientific need.

What? Really? Come on man, LDWF wouldn't even exist without fishermen and hunters, they are on our side. They are there solely to manage our wildlife, not restrict our liberties.

[MathGeek]

Originally Posted by Duck Butter

What? Really? Come on man, LDWF wouldn't even exist without fishermen and hunters, they are on our side. They are there solely to manage our wildlife, not restrict our liberties.

I'm questioning their methods, not their motives.

Should the executive branch restrict liberties based on public opinion (by whatever sampling method) or by sound science?

When LDWF or CCA or whoever supports a regulation change based on what they are hearing from anglers or their membership or whomever, then they are making decisions based on public opinion rather than science.

In our democratic republic, public opinion should be allowed to influence the elected legislature. However, the elected legislature has delegated certain wildlife management regulatory powers to the executive branch with the understanding and expectation that these regulatory powers only infringe on the liberty of citizens when these restrictions are shown to be necessary by sound scientific methods.

Sometimes being on the side of anglers and hunters means listening to the science and making data driven decisions and ignoring the momentary public opinion of those same anglers and hunters.

[MathGeek]

Originally Posted by Duck Butter

MG:
This is junk science. First of all, there is no description of the study design, sample sizes, or actual data. There is just a comparison of recapture rates with "other game fish." Which "other game fish?" Were there comparable delays and comparable recapture efforts with the TT and the "other game fish?"

DB:
You are going to have to get a link to these studies and that will answer your questions, I am sorry you were not in the loop of the peer review process, but neither were 99.9% of fishermen

MG:
Furthermore, a relatively high recapture rate does not necessarily imply vulnerability to over fishing. It simply means that the specimens that are captured once are more likely to be captured again. This does not indicate that the entire population is subject to likely capture in the first place. There may be large parts of the population that are not subject to easy capture (due to habitat or feeding preferences).

DB:
All speculation, you are going to have to speak with the publisher of the paper(s). He/she will probably tell you everything you want to hear. A high capture rate (ease of capture) is exactly what is raising concern.

I've been working hard tracking down this purported tag study, finally contacting the scientists themselves that were mentioned by name in a newspaper article on tripletail tagging.

There are no published papers by these authors (or any other authors) in the scholarly literature on the tagging of tripletail in the last decade.

The data, methodology, results, and interpretation remain unpublished and unavailable for peer-review or open discussion. All we have is the hearsay report of a 2.5 the recapture rate of tagged tripletail compared with other game species.

The LWF Commission should not be implementing much more restrictive tripletail harvest regulations until the science is better understood, including publication and open review and discussion of purported data and scientific results that are cited in support of more restrictive regulations.