Answering the Libertarian argument for drug legalization

[Clampy]

Originally Posted by southern151

I'm going to put myself on blast here for a minute and say, "Yes, I was somewhat of a follower as a youth." I did take to a less-than-savory crowd for reasons that I still don't understand today. I didn't feel like we were bad people and, for the most part, we weren't. We were just kids that liked to "paint outside of society's lines."

Did we stop at herb use only? No. Many of the guys I ran with, myself included did things that were far more sinister beyond that. I don't believe, not even for a second that one lead to the other though. It was just the times and, place we lived in.

Did these experiences do me any good? Yes and, no. Yes because, I learned some very valuable lessons about life and, the pitfalls that can come with substance abuse. I learned that, even the worst sins(in the eyes of society) doesn't mean you can't still do good for others. No, it did not make me a greater athlete. No, it did not motivate me. It also didn't make me want to rob a store either.

Of all the guys I ran with, more than 50% of us own businesses now and, are doing well with them. Another is the GM for a huge Harley dealer. Two more are operators in plants. Yeah, a couple wound up on the loser train but, I truly don't believe that had anything to do with substance abuse. It had to do with their home life or, lackthereof.

Nailed it. Look we can't all be gems but if you let a plant that makes stuff funny and makes good taste good ruin your life then shame on you. That person could have got hooked on anything like cheese burgers / porn or anything. Something like 8% of pop has addictive personality. The phone many of us are typing on made by Steve jobs who occasionally smoked pot and credited some of his creativity to early LSD use. Carl Sagan daily pot smoker I could literally go on for days with smart as hell people who smoked pot. That being said a bunch are losers but that's because they were destine to become losers.

[Clampy]

Food taste good * typing too fast over here.

[Goooh]

Originally Posted by Clampy

Food taste good * typing too fast over here.

I was hopin you meant *good taste gooder

[Clampy]

How many saw Sanja Gupta apologize for furthering marijuana ignorance in the past and then he came out with that documentary that just aired on CNN.
Game changer IMO.

[eman]

Albert Einstein. A Pure math genius smoked opium. As did many folks in that time .
MJ may be Psychologically addictive to someone w/ an addictive personality.
But so would / could eating twinkies ,playing video games etc.
But i have never seen a physical addiction to marijuana.

[Kenner18]

If weed was legal Hostess wouldn't have had to file Bankruptcy !!!!
woulda saved the business.

[Clampy]

Just put weed In the Twinkie. Problem solved.

[Clampy]

Nobody did it so I had to.
Here is the Prohibitionist argument.

http://youtu.be/Uh7l8dx-h8M

[mr crab]

Dang....did we change mg's mind?????

[AceArcher]

Thank you for starting a new topic in regards to this subject, I agree it does merit it's own discussion. I will post this response on the previous thread as well just for some continuity.... but will keep any further discussion on this thread.

Before addressing some of the things below, I want to clarify a bit. When i referred to "legalization" I am speaking of drugs which are considered to be "Soft" i.e. Alcohol, Nicotine, Cannabis / Weed / MJ etc, Mushrooms and like.

So now we can proceed.

Originally Posted by MathGeek

Legitimate criticisms on how drug laws are enforced should be separated from the questions of whether drugs are illegal in the first place, which drugs are illegal and for who are they illegal. Suppose that laws against shoplifting were brutally enforced with blatant disregard for Constitutional rights, would this support a case to legalize shoplifting?

As indicated above I have clarified that i take this discussion to be one on the legalization of various "soft" drugs. Although compelling arguments can be made that one should even legalize "hard" drugs i do not believe that this is the correct time or place to discuss those.

To be blunt here MG, there is no comparison between shoplifting, child prostitution, legalized murder or any other violent crime / crime against another person that you care to use as an example.... if you ask why? its because "soft" drug use is a personal decision that can be made by an adult and does not in and of itself cause any harm what so ever to anyone else.

Every other example listed involves one human either physically or monetarily harming another.

Originally Posted by MathGeek

There are certainly a lot of problems with current drug laws and their enforcement. Among these: Most federal drug laws are an overreach of federal power far beyond congressional authority to regulate interstate commerce. In most cases, drug laws should be a purely state issue. Furthermore, laws allowing agencies to confiscate property before anyone is convicted of a crime perpetuate and encourage bad behavior on the part of government officials. Finally, the US Constitution is the supreme law if the land, and government employees who violate it should face stiffer penalties (as corrupt officials) than the alleged offenders who they are purportedly trying to catch.

Basically i agree with what your saying in this paragraph, The current laws pertaining to "soft" drug use are the very definitions of insanity. When violent person on person crimes (assault & battery, rape, etc) receive lower sentencing due to silly "get tough on drugs" laws, then there is something very very wrong with our system.

Although the current AG has proposed sweeping reforms to how non violent drug offense crimes are handled (by seemingly fast tracking them into treatment programs rather as an alternative to jails) I am viewing these actions as a stopgap attempt to continue the "war" on drugs, and just changing from prison punishment to one where drug counseling programs will be the new benefactors of a massive federal cash infusion. It will kind of make for a somewhat "perfect" storm ... drug war and it's associated cost's will get to continue, and the drug counseling programs will get a huge present under the tree this christmas. If this goes thru expect to start seeing a lot of commercials for "compassionate care for your loved one's suffering from addiction."

Originally Posted by MathGeek

My case that drugs should remain illegal is framed around three basic ideas:
1. Many recreational drugs do harm that goes far beyond the individual user and greatly increase the likelihood that the individual user will become an undue burden on his employer, his family, his insurers, his landlord, his creditors, other associations (school, sports, religious), and society as a whole. Making and enforcing effective laws against driving under the influence is a particular challenge.

2. Laws train the conscience of young people, and many teenagers approach adulthood with the notion that if an act is truly wrong or dangerous, then it is against the law. Once legalized, there will be many more users both because the conscience will more easily accept drug use, and because drugs are more widely available.

3. As a practical matter, substances that are legal for adults are much more easily acquired by minors. Laws against alcohol and nicotine use by minors are very rarely enforced, and I would hate for those providing marijuana to children to face no more penalty or effective enforcement than those providing cigarettes.

On subject #1: Again when discussing "soft" drugs that are currently illegal the exact opposite of what you are stating has been proven on many many different scientific fronts. Whether you want to look at studies conducted here in the states, or one's conducted overseas in countries where "soft" drugs are either legal, or de facto legal. Everything points to the fact that legalization results in lower levels of drug use by residents of that area (although there is some uptick in tourism drug use) lower petty and violent crime rates, in short legalization, regulation, and control help!

The making and enforcing of laws to cover vehicle use, while under the influence have already been done. Therefore they are no longer a challange, IMO it's very similar to Alcohol. You administer a field sobriety test, if the person fails said test they are then required to submit to a drug test to determine THC levels in their sample. Case closed, book 'em Danno.

On subject #2: Again the exact opposite of what your stating has been scientifically studied and proven in test bed countries like Portugal and the Netherlands, as well as many many studies here in the states.

The Netherlands experienced a static level of drug use after legalization of "soft" drugs. After removing the increase in drug use seem by drug tourism. They actually saw a significant reduction in drug use of the local population.

Portugal decriminalized and has not even gone so far as to begin regulation. And they have shown a significant downturn in all (not just soft) drug use. Incidentally HIV infections due to infected needle sharing have all but disappeared.

on Subject #3: Study has shown that making a drug illegal has at best no impact on teenagers desire and ability to obtain the drug. In point of fact most studies show that teenagers tend to rebel rather than conform. I have to ask you here MG, If you are the guardian of a teenager who is choosing to rebel without your permission. Would you prefer that said teen purchase their weed in a enviroment that's controlled and regulated to ensure safety. Or would you prefer that said teen purchase the drug in the "Black Market / Gang Underworld" as they do now.

If you feel that the second option is the better of the two, please in detail explain to me how you feel that it would be the better option.

If it's a case of an "adult" straw purchasing the drug for the minor, please answer the same question in regards to whats more beneficial (legal purchase vs black market)

Originally Posted by MathGeek

In a libertarian utopia where insurers, parents, sports teams, schools, employers, and other interested parties could contractually insist on drug testing, and there would remain criminal penalties for fraud or theft by deception for lying/cheating on drug tests, a society might still maintain sufficient safeguards. But legalizing recreational drugs in the current nanny state where many insurers, employers, traffic enforcement, and other parties which have interests in limiting exposure to drug users cannot fully protect their interests is a likely disaster.

There is no difference between who is currently insured and is a user of "soft" drugs, and who will be insured as a user of "soft" drugs post legalization. It is none of any insurance, employers, schools, teams, etc parties business what you as a person do with your personal time. None of the above "Sky is falling" issues presented any real concern in other country's who have legalized. Again, the scenario's remain clear. Same as if your intoxicated with alcohol in one of these situations. A person will report that they believe you may be under the influence, your then given a field sobriety test to determine if you are or not, if you fail you have the option to submit to drug test and / or lose your job, team affiliation...etc.

Originally Posted by MathGeek

I remember a high school principal once almost fired me (as a math teacher working in the school), because I overheard students in class talking about their weekend drug use, I told their parents, and I suggested their parents use widely available at home drug tests to monitor and bring correction to their children's behavior. I am confident I would have been fired had I not resigned first. 80% of the seniors at this high school were regular recreational drug users. The school resource officer, the principal, the school nurse, and most of the teachers either did not care, or had been manipulated into not acting by their desire for a paycheck. Effectively teaching math, physics, and chemistry was impossible.

There have been loads of published studies which indicate that a person's capacity to learn is not hampered by reasonable level's of "soft" drug use. Does that mean you can learn if your stoned / drunk off your ***... probably not. But the overwhelming majority of drinkers do not choose to be drunk 24 hrs a day. I propose to you that the overwhelming amount of soft drug users will also have little or no desire (not to mention the financial means) to be stoned all the time.

Originally Posted by MathGeek

Any path to drug legalization certainly needs to empower any and all associates of possible drug users (parents, schools, sports teams, employers, coaches, traffic enforcement, insurers, etc.) to implement effective drug testing programs (if they choose) as a condition of ongoing association. I would certainly want my daughter's prom date to pee in a cup before allowing my daughter to ride in his car! I would also want our military to retain the power to restrict drugs under the UCMJ.

So we should start administering BAC (blow in the tube sir) tests to all at every opportunity? Should there be a BAC tester ignition disabeler installed in every vehicle straight from the factory? Have you asked your daughter's prom date to blow in the tube when he last picked her up? Will you stay up until the return home and expect him to blow in the tube again then? And i'm sure your daughter's prom date wants to know how many shotguns you have and if your proficient in there use

I jest a little, but really. The sky will most certainly not fall and everyone will most probably not go completely slap insane if soft drugs are all legalized.

Originally Posted by MathGeek

I am curious if your view of libertarian ideals would grant all associates of possible drug users the rights to choose and limit their associations (if they wished) by insisting on drug testing as a condition of association. After all, what justification is there in limiting civil contracts not to permit drug testing under any relationship where one of the parties feels it may be necessary or desirable?

So I would only get to join your secret handshake club if I were to pass a drug test? That's not discriminatory at all is it? Going to go out on a limb here and say that if any "secret handshake club" is more worried about a prospect being an "evil" drug user than whether they are recruiting a solid upstanding member of society, who pays his taxes, loves his family, contributes to his community....... who may occasionally smoke a herb on the weekend etc... well they probably are looking at the wrong stuff and are not gonna be to popular an organization anyways.

I do certainly espouse some "libertarian ideals"

But i have learned my lessons well in life, and i do know this. What's right is right, And you should always "Aim small, Miss small" (ie Aim for the stars, when you make it to the moon it won't be a dissapointment)

[AceArcher]

Also i would like to note that we are solely focusing on possible negatives here, There are many many known positives that will occur with "soft" legalization.

Short list would include,
1) Rebirth of Hemp industry, estimated to be worth multiple billions in expected tax revenue alone.
2) Tax revenue from the legalized and regulated product.. God only know's how many $$$
3) Reduced costs for the known downturns which will occur with a reduction in illegal drug use(reduction in costs associated with HIV infections would in and of themselves be profound)
4) The effective stripping of money and power from drug kingpins / cartels / etc. 70+ percent of their revenue / income comes from "soft" drugs. With that money gone they will not be able to continue the border wars that they have started.
5) to some extent drug tourism would come in play. (not sure how long this would go as quite frankly once the US legalizes i believe the majority of the world will quickly follow.)


I'm sure that there are many more that i am not thinking of presently... but that's a good enough start.

[bmac]

Portugal decriminalized and has not even gone so far as to begin regulation. And they have shown a significant downturn in all (not just soft) drug use. Incidentally HIV infections due to infected needle sharing have all but disappeared.

I am skeptical of this statement. Do you have any source info?

on Subject #3: Study has shown that making a drug illegal has at best no impact on teenagers desire and ability to obtain the drug. In point of fact most studies show that teenagers tend to rebel rather than conform. I have to ask you here MG, If you are the guardian of a teenager who is choosing to rebel without your permission. Would you prefer that said teen purchase their weed in a enviroment that's controlled and regulated to ensure safety. Or would you prefer that said teen purchase the drug in the "Black Market / Gang Underworld" as they do now.

If you feel that the second option is the better of the two, please in detail explain to me how you feel that it would be the better option.

If it's a case of an "adult" straw purchasing the drug for the minor, please answer the same question in regards to whats more beneficial (legal purchase vs black market)

This argument relies on the assumption that store bought legal weed would be cheaper than some bought on the street. I'm very curious about whether illicit marijuana sales have ceased in Colorado since it was legalized. How many packs of cigarettes are illegally imported and sold in New York state each year? Are we really naive enough to think that the drug lords in south America will stop shipping pot over the border once it is legal here? Or are we now going to legally buy from those murderers?

There is no simple answer to this.

[AceArcher]

Originally Posted by bmac

I am skeptical of this statement. Do you have any source info?



This argument relies on the assumption that store bought legal weed would be cheaper than some bought on the street. I'm very curious about whether illicit marijuana sales have ceased in Colorado since it was legalized. How many packs of cigarettes are illegally imported and sold in New York state each year? Are we really naive enough to think that the drug lords in south America will stop shipping pot over the border once it is legal here? Or are we now going to legally buy from those murderers?

There is no simple answer to this.

some links to relevant discussion on the topic.

from wikipedia

Drug policy of Portugal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Drug policy of Portugal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Drug policy of Portugal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

from business insider: http://www.businessinsider.com/portu...n-works-2012-7

cato institute: http://www.cato.org/publications/whi...-drug-policies


all of the above relate to portugal, if you want to similar results for the netherlands just do a google search for "results of netherlands drug legalization"

in regards to your questions about whether store bought can be undercut by the black market.. the answer is i'm sure it can. But if the store bout brand is priced accordingly to provide a solid profit margin for the growers / distributors, and to return a solid tax to the government it will make the sale of a "black" market version economically unviable. The cost's to do something illegal are always much higher, You have to hide everything you do, a large percentage of you profit goes out the door in bribes, and you will also loose a large percentage thru betrayal / police activity. Even our government should be able to effectively compete with drugs lords on weed pricing.

Could probably even bring a fair chunk of change to the locally grown farming community (they have suffered a lot in recent years and could sure use a boost)

The only real viable reason for caution in moving forward with wholesale legalization is the incredible amount of people and money who are currently in the "game" because the are "fighting" the war on drugs. We cannot afford as a country to have them unemployed, so they must be retrained and put to use building our nations infrastructure or something along those line. (not saying its going to happen.. just saying that it needs to)

Have no idea what's going on in colorado or other states that have legalized, am sure there are still legal issues being worked on due to Federal involvement. So realistically it's still far to early to see how that's going to roll out.

[Clampy]

Originally Posted by bmac

I am skeptical of this statement. Do you have any source info?



This argument relies on the assumption that store bought legal weed would be cheaper than some bought on the street. I'm very curious about whether illicit marijuana sales have ceased in Colorado since it was legalized. How many packs of cigarettes are illegally imported and sold in New York state each year? Are we really naive enough to think that the drug lords in south America will stop shipping pot over the border once it is legal here? Or are we now going to legally buy from those murderers?

There is no simple answer to this.

Since retail outlets haven't opened yet In CO and Was I'm sure all sales are still considered federally illegal.

America /isreal & holland grow the best bud on the planet. No one or at least most wouldn't buy Mexican ditch weed if they had a option.

[mr crab]

Originally Posted by Clampy

Since retail outlets haven't opened yet In CO and Was I'm sure all sales are still considered federally illegal.

America /isreal & holland grow the best bud on the planet. No one or at least most wouldn't buy Mexican ditch weed if they had a option.

Can't even find "stress" in cali anymore...its been eradicated

[Clampy]

Originally Posted by mr crab

Can't even find "stress" in cali anymore...its been eradicated

Ha. True. Recent research on PTSD and cannabis and our veterans is extremely promising. Way better than some toxic prescription drugs. With it being in S1 the government won't let anyone study it here unless they promise they are only looking for negative things. That's why Isreal is leading the world in MJ studies.

"The University of Mississippi grows and harvests cannabis for studies funded by the National Institute on Drug Abuse, yet because NIDA's congressionally mandated mission is to research the harmful effects of controlled substances and stop drug abuse, the institute isn't interested in helping establish marijuana as a medicine."


http://m.popsci.com/science/article/...page-view=true

[Montauk17]

"Sure you can abuse anything. People abuse the hell out of cheeseburgers,but you don't see them shutting down burger king"

[AceArcher]

http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...riminalization

[AceArcher]

http://www.time.com/time/health/arti...893946,00.html

[AceArcher]

kind of tough to get more conservative than fox news.. http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/12...-eyes-lessons/