Answering the Libertarian argument for drug legalization

[Clampy]

I see where all they true libertarians stand and I have to say I'm quite impressed. I like math geek thought this thread was going to go a different way.

[mriguy]

I'm not going to make a public statement as to which side of this argument I am on. Let's just say it is the side of realism and sanity.

I just cant figure out why the Federal government is even involved.

Obviously it should be left up to the individual states.

The ONLY things the Fed government should provide to its citizens are a national defense and interstate commerce regulation. My .02

Carry on

[Montauk17]

LOL

[Clampy]

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1376873270.483812.jpg

[MissSmallAimsSmall]

"If there is a relationship between cannabis and other illicit drug use, we have to explain it. The two main explanations that feature in the public debate are: (1) that cannabis users are more likely to use other illicit drugs because of the pharmacological and other effects that cannabis has; and (2) that cannabis users are more likely to use other illicit drugs because the same black market supplies cannabis and other illicit drugs, so cannabis users are more likely to have access to other illicit drugs.

There is abundant evidence from surveys of adolescent drug use in the United States and elsewhere that cannabis use and the use of cocaine and heroin are associated (7). From the late 1970s to the 1990s in the United States, there was a strong relationship between regular cannabis use and the later use of heroin and cocaine. Kandel (8), for example, found that only 7% of American adolescents who had not used cannabis reported using another illicit drug. By contrast, 33% of those who reported using cannabis had used another illicit drug. Most (84%) daily cannabis users had done so and they had also used many more types of illicit drugs than their peers who had not used cannabis or who were not daily users of cannabis (8).

Almost all adolescents who have tried cocaine and heroin, had used alcohol, tobacco and cannabis in that order (10). Those who began to use alcohol and tobacco at an early age, and those became regular smokers and drinkers, were the ones who were most likely to use cannabis. In turn, it was cannabis users who began use at an early age who were the most likely to become regular cannabis users and the most likely to use hallucinogens, amphetamines and tranquillizers. The heaviest users of these drugs were, in turn, more likely to use cocaine and heroin."- The Health and Psychological effects of Cannabis Use

[Duck Butter]

Originally Posted by MissSmallAimsSmall

"If there is a relationship between cannabis and other illicit drug use, we have to explain it. The two main explanations that feature in the public debate are: (1) that cannabis users are more likely to use other illicit drugs because of the pharmacological and other effects that cannabis has; and (2) that cannabis users are more likely to use other illicit drugs because the same black market supplies cannabis and other illicit drugs, so cannabis users are more likely to have access to other illicit drugs.

There is abundant evidence from surveys of adolescent drug use in the United States and elsewhere that cannabis use and the use of cocaine and heroin are associated (7). From the late 1970s to the 1990s in the United States, there was a strong relationship between regular cannabis use and the later use of heroin and cocaine. Kandel (8), for example, found that only 7% of American adolescents who had not used cannabis reported using another illicit drug. By contrast, 33% of those who reported using cannabis had used another illicit drug. Most (84%) daily cannabis users had done so and they had also used many more types of illicit drugs than their peers who had not used cannabis or who were not daily users of cannabis (8).

Almost all adolescents who have tried cocaine and heroin, had used alcohol, tobacco and cannabis in that order (10).

"Every adolescent who tried cocaine and heroin had tried cows milk previously"

I have no stance on this issue, because it will not affect me but some of these arguments are just junk

[Clampy]

Originally Posted by Duck Butter

"Every adolescent who tried cocaine and heroin had tried cows milk previously"

I have no stance on this issue, because it will not affect me but some of these arguments are just junk

Well that's just it. Once all the facts are out there all you have left is junk and ideology.

[AceArcher]

Originally Posted by MissSmallAimsSmall

"If there is a relationship between cannabis and other illicit drug use, we have to explain it. The two main explanations that feature in the public debate are: (1) that cannabis users are more likely to use other illicit drugs because of the pharmacological and other effects that cannabis has; and (2) that cannabis users are more likely to use other illicit drugs because the same black market supplies cannabis and other illicit drugs, so cannabis users are more likely to have access to other illicit drugs.

There is abundant evidence from surveys of adolescent drug use in the United States and elsewhere that cannabis use and the use of cocaine and heroin are associated (7). From the late 1970s to the 1990s in the United States, there was a strong relationship between regular cannabis use and the later use of heroin and cocaine. Kandel (8), for example, found that only 7% of American adolescents who had not used cannabis reported using another illicit drug. By contrast, 33% of those who reported using cannabis had used another illicit drug. Most (84%) daily cannabis users had done so and they had also used many more types of illicit drugs than their peers who had not used cannabis or who were not daily users of cannabis (8).

Almost all adolescents who have tried cocaine and heroin, had used alcohol, tobacco and cannabis in that order (10). Those who began to use alcohol and tobacco at an early age, and those became regular smokers and drinkers, were the ones who were most likely to use cannabis. In turn, it was cannabis users who began use at an early age who were the most likely to become regular cannabis users and the most likely to use hallucinogens, amphetamines and tranquillizers. The heaviest users of these drugs were, in turn, more likely to use cocaine and heroin."- The Health and Psychological effects of Cannabis Use

Really... we went over this mess in pages 1-4 possibly including some contained in page 5. I would have thought that your good friend Mathgeek would have showed you all the studies linked by us heathen libertarian drug users.

In any case here is a short list of studies which refute the study's you have listed above.

Mathematical Model study

In December 2002, a study by RAND regarding if cannabis use results in the subsequent use of cocaine and heroin was published in the British Journal of Addiction, a peer-reviewed scientific publication. The researchers created a mathematical model simulating adolescent drug use. National rates of cannabis and hard drug use in the model matched survey data collected from representative samples of youths from across the United States; the model produced patterns of drug use and abuse. Andrew Morral, associate director of RAND's Public Safety and Justice unit and lead author of the study stated:[19]
We've shown that the marijuana gateway effect is not the best explanation for the link between marijuana use and the use of harder drugs ... An alternative, simpler and more compelling explanation accounts for the pattern of drug use you see in this country, without resort to any gateway effects. While the gateway theory has enjoyed popular acceptance, scientists have always had their doubts. Our study shows that these doubts are justified.
One reason the risk factor for using drugs in cannabis users is higher is because few people try hard drugs prior to trying cannabis, not because cannabis users increasingly try hard drugs such as amphetamines. For example, cannabis is typically available at a significantly earlier age than other illicit drugs. Further research has shown that people with a disposition to resort to cannabis use are more likely to live longer and healthier lives than users of other "social drugs" such as alcohol.[20]


Study on American adolescents (12 years)
In December 2006, a 12 year gateway drug hypothesis study on 214 boys from ages 10–12 by the American Psychiatric Association was published in the American Journal of Psychiatry. The study concluded adolescents who used cannabis prior to using other drugs, including alcohol and tobacco, were no more likely to develop a substance abuse disorder than subjects in the study who did not use cannabis prior to using other drugs.[21] In other words, rearranging the order of the alleged "steppingstones" did not change the outcomes.


Study on San Francisco vs. Amsterdam
In 2004, a study comparing cannabis users in San Francisco to those in Amsterdam was done to test the effects of the differing drug policies in the two cities on drug use patterns. The Netherlands has a drug policy of decriminalization in which cannabis can be bought by adults over 18 in quasi-legal "coffee shops" and used publicly, while in the United States cannabis is criminalized and must be bought in the black market (often from the same dealers that sell hard drugs) and used "underground". The results found that, compared with their counterparts in Amsterdam the San Francisco cannabis users were significantly more likely to use cocaine, crack, amphetamines, ecstasy, and opiates despite similar cannabis use patterns and a more permissive drug policy in the Netherlands.[22]


Rat studies
A study in 3-4 month old rats actually found reduced reinforcing potential of cocaine in those rats pretreated with THC compared with those treated with vehicle only.[23] Another rat study (28–49 days old, or 6.6–10.4 in human years) found that, while rats pretreated with THC consumed higher doses of heroin relative to controls, both groups took up self-administration of heroin at the same rate, and there was no significant difference between groups on the reinforcing effects of heroin.[24]


There are many, many, many more....... But for some strange reason i really doubt you will believe them.

[AceArcher]

Originally Posted by MissSmallAimsSmall

"If there is a relationship between cannabis and other illicit drug use, we have to explain it. The two main explanations that feature in the public debate are: (1) that cannabis users are more likely to use other illicit drugs because of the pharmacological and other effects that cannabis has; and (2) that cannabis users are more likely to use other illicit drugs because the same black market supplies cannabis and other illicit drugs, so cannabis users are more likely to have access to other illicit drugs.

There is abundant evidence from surveys of adolescent drug use in the United States and elsewhere that cannabis use and the use of cocaine and heroin are associated (7). From the late 1970s to the 1990s in the United States, there was a strong relationship between regular cannabis use and the later use of heroin and cocaine. Kandel (8), for example, found that only 7% of American adolescents who had not used cannabis reported using another illicit drug. By contrast, 33% of those who reported using cannabis had used another illicit drug. Most (84%) daily cannabis users had done so and they had also used many more types of illicit drugs than their peers who had not used cannabis or who were not daily users of cannabis (8).

Almost all adolescents who have tried cocaine and heroin, had used alcohol, tobacco and cannabis in that order (10). Those who began to use alcohol and tobacco at an early age, and those became regular smokers and drinkers, were the ones who were most likely to use cannabis. In turn, it was cannabis users who began use at an early age who were the most likely to become regular cannabis users and the most likely to use hallucinogens, amphetamines and tranquillizers. The heaviest users of these drugs were, in turn, more likely to use cocaine and heroin."- The Health and Psychological effects of Cannabis Use

On an unrelated side note this study that your referencing is from the early 90's. Additionally it was a study commissioned and funded by "The National Task force on Cannabis" a group out of Australia. I cannot find any mention of if this was a governmental task force or a private one.

Either case certainly not a current, and quite possibly not an unbiased opinion at all.

In comparison the 4 counter studies I have linked could all be considered both current, and relatively unbiased.

[Clampy]

"The "Gateway Theory" is a theory that the use of cannabis naturally leads to the use of heroin, cocaine, or other "hard drugs". This theory is often used to explain why cannabis use must remain criminal, despite cannabis use itself being less physically dangerous than many legal activities. Although the Gateway Theory has been repeatedly debunked and discredited by reviews funded by the White House, the Parliament of Britain, and the government of Canada, it continues to be used as an argument in both educational materials and political decisions.

Based on the data from the National Survey on Drug Use and Health (NSDUH), formerly named the National Household Survey on Drug Abuse, by SAMSHA, the percentage of those who have ever tried marijuana and then ended up using heroin once per month is around 1 in 1000. To explain this further, since the estimated number of monthly heroin users in the United Status in 2001 is 100,000, that is the maximum number of people who can have gone on to use heroin regularly after trying cannabis. Since there are an estimated 83 million people in the US who have ever tried cannabis, this works out to 0.12% (100,000 / 83,300,000). " - erowid.

Try again smalls.

[Clampy]

The fact you have to go to a drug dealer is the gateway. These points you bring up are either irrelevant or so easily debunked it isn't even worth doing it anymore.

[Clampy]

Don't feel bad though. This is a FBI director getting schooled on gateway theory.
http://t.co/ljfsqYgQqi

[Goooh]

Anybody have stats on marijuana related deaths every year? Deaths directly related to it, not some theoretical path of subjective probabilities either.

While you're searching, grab the stats on caffeine, tobacco, aspirin and alcohol and bring them back with you too.

[Mako19]

I had a professor in college who taught ethics.
He owns his own pharamcy and has 7 college degrees.

If you took ethics at UL you know who I am talkimg about.

One chapter in this class was about drug use.
He stated that marajuana is 100% non addictive.

Unlike nicotine, alcohol, and even caffiene which have been proven to be addictive.

["W"]

Originally Posted by Mako19

I had a professor in college who taught ethics.
He owns his own pharamcy and has 7 college degrees.

If you took ethics at UL you know who I am talkimg about.

One chapter in this class was about drug use.
He stated that marajuana is 100% non addictive.

Unlike nicotine, alcohol, and even caffiene which have been proven to be addictive.

USL...only college in La that has a special class for queers

So his thoughts dont count

[Mako19]

Originally Posted by "W"

USL...only college in La that has a special class for queers

So his thoughts dont count

Another intelligent post by W.

Those online classes from UH for professional meter readers are clearly paying off.

["W"]

Originally Posted by Mako19

Another intelligent post by W.

Those online classes from UH for professional meter readers are clearly paying off.

USL fan Mad



Awwwwwww sha so cute!!!

[Montauk17]

Originally Posted by "W"

USL...only college in La that has a special class for queers

So his thoughts dont count

Every college has a gay/lesbian support group....do I agree with it? Hell no! Do some research before you try to discount someone without the facts. Go along with the rest of the sheepople and stay ignorant.

["W"]

Originally Posted by Mako19

I had a professor in college who taught ethics.
He owns his own pharamcy and has 7 college degrees.

If you took ethics at UL you know who I am talkimg about.

One chapter in this class was about drug use.
He stated that marajuana is 100% non addictive.

Unlike nicotine, alcohol, and even caffiene which have been proven to be addictive.

Honey Badger would disagree about it being addictive

[hawgsquatch]

Originally Posted by Mako19

I had a professor in college who taught ethics.
He owns his own pharamcy and has 7 college degrees.

If you took ethics at UL you know who I am talkimg about.

One chapter in this class was about drug use.
He stated that marajuana is 100% non addictive.

Unlike nicotine, alcohol, and even caffiene which have been proven to be addictive.

If it is non addictive, why are people willing to go to jail to do it?

If it is non addictive why do people pay so much for it and it is always in demand.

If it is non addictive why does it work on the pleasure centers of the brain and release dopanine the same as caffiene, alcohol, and cocaine.

We has a college professor here kill his wife, behead her, and eat part of her...what does that do to your argument. If your professors status and education makes him right about addiction, my professor makes yours a cannibal.

BTW you can't teach ethics, you have them or you don't.