How Soon is Too Soon
 

Hey guys, I have a new yellow lab I've been training, September 1st she will be 3 months old, I have another yellow lab that is 3 years old that my new lab follows like a shadow. I was thinking about bringing the pup out sometime during the second split to watch my trained dog work and get her used to cold and cold water. Too soon? or would that be a good idea?

I would wait til he's at least a year and his drive is through the roof. Bringing a young pup on a cold day, with 12 gauges exploding all over could ruin a pups experience on hunting. There's plenty of people that brought their dogs hunting at a very early age (me included), but the old saying, "being smart and being lucky are 2 different things".

Get the dog to like water now while it is warmer, and do not bring the pup in the blind until after it has had formal obedience and ben gun conditioned. I think too many poeple RUSH into getting a dog into the blind. Cold water in the beginning can make a dog scared, you have to gradually work them into cooler waterl

Pm Raymond on here for exact directions .

He/she should be swimming by now. Get in the water and he will swim to you eventually, and then like most labs will love the water.

I would wait on bringing it to the blind especially if other people are hunting with you. Nothing and I mean nothing is worse than hunting with an untrained dog:)

oh she absolutly loves the water, can't let her near it without a leash or she'll be in it. I've had labs before that like the water but not like this one, if she sees a puddle or pond, she is in it, dives down underwater getting sticks and chasing fish, weirdest thing. If I leave the bathroom door open and I'm in the shower, she is in it too, rain, mud, anything, she loves it

Mine hates a bath!:rotfl: I have to drag his big azz to the water hose, he hunkers down and makes me pull him

X100

I have trained many dogs and all of them I have fully trained and hunting at 6 months old. Many trainers have different methods but I think if you introduce them to everything step by step prior to putting them in actual hunt. You should be fine. I wouldn't put ur dog in the blind at 3 months but no harm in doing it later in the season.

"fully trained at 6 months" really??

that's remarkable.

I would not recommend putting your dog in the blind at 3 months. I dont know what good could come from that.

"Fully trained" is in the eyes of the beholder.

Yes. Retrieving 16 teal for hunts during teal season. I don't use shock collars. The hand signals may need to be fine tuned but most of that is easy to finish up. If you spend lots of time with ur dog ( let them in the house with u, take them where u go, become their best friend). Combined with that and making it fun for the dog to retrieve. You will be surprised with the results.

Raymond in 3....2....1.....

Do you follow the milner methods?

Don't know what that is. I have trained 5 successful dogs. 2 for me and 3 for friends. Many trainers have different methods and mine have worked for the dogs I have worked with. But I have seen some dogs at 2 years old that still don't get. Don't know if it is the dog or how the owner trained them.

Last year I hunted my pup @ 4 months old...the first week he needed on the job training...lets just say it was a learning curve. After that he was balls to the wall with an occasional hiccup...Pretty impressive though.

Water dog book?

I have read it. Train much the same way.

Ought to look into Tom Quinn, and D. L. And Ann Walters books, they'll help with the "hand signals" otherwise known as casts. Hope this helps.

And to the OP, I'm in the against bringing him crowd. To many potentials for a or many negatives. Take your time with it and enjoy the dog.

Way too easy Shawn. Sometimes it's better to not call attention to ignorance.

I've had bird dogs that where fully trained, (point, back & retrieve) and hunting at 6 months...and have seen labs that where pretty much finished dogs at 6 months and just needed to be hunted for them to become better....just depends on the dog.

Please define Finished?

Knows all the commands, and on hand signals, if you train retrievers you know what finish is.

Put my hands on over a hundred and never have or will have a finished dog at 6 months. What y'all are calling hand signals is actually cast and it can't be solid until a dog is force fetched and that can't be done until a dog is atleast 6 months old. I'll wager a months pay your finished dogs are little more than backyard hounds that would have trouble with any Mark over 40 yds or blind past 25 yds. The next post will start out with,"I don't want no field trial dog or robot" but how many field trial dogs have you hunted with and how many field trials have you ever been to? Hunt test don't count since they aren't field trials. All competent dog trainers follow the same program that creates field trial dogs, cream rises. What people know and what people think they know separates those who can get the job done and succeed year after year and 5 dogs ain't gonna make you a trainer. Bring your dogs and sack of money any Saturday and we will find out how much training they have. PM me for address and time.

My dog, was a genious at 4 months old in the blind. With lots of work and diligence....he still isn't "finished" this year will be be another go round, now over a year old. We will see what this season brings.

I am 58 years old, been to more field trials than you have probably been to, both bird dogs and retrievers, Omar Driskal was training a Golden for me when he was putting together the HRC which you are probably running your dogs in today. The first dog that Barry Lyons hunted over that was trained was mine when we where in high school back in 1969 and I have alot of friends that own and hunt Grand Champions....I don't own any more hunting dogs, those days are gone. Second, I didn't train dogs professionally. I owned hunting dogs, bird dogs and retrievers, I trained my bird dogs, and I trained my retrievers, but that was before the HRC was formed, and before running dogs in hunting tests was a popular thing to do, even though the AKC had trials at that time but was not a hunting favored test like the HRC, or what Omar game up with. If I had a trained dog at this time I would be more than happy to take you up on your offer, however I do have a friend that has a 7 month old lab that is forced, and "taking casts" if you really want to lose some money. Call Robert Andries, and ask him about Jimmy's dog "Bone". Time, anytime, place here, 2765 Parhams Road, Jonesville, La.

I agree with you Raymond about cream rises, it's starts in the pedigree

depends on your pup and the training and what she can do. I don't like two dogs in a blind unless the training in both dogs are at the point that one will stay when the other dog is given their command to retrieve .... my 2 cents worth

Wag I can't argue with you.
One thing I've learned is arguing about dogs and training is like arguing about religion.
BUT.......if I guy even has to ask the question about should his new dog be brought to the blind, blah blah blah........then I submit that he has not trained a finished dog in six months.

Just my opinion.......
What do I know, I hunt with a versatile breed...............LOL

Amen!! Ain't no such thing as a finished dog at 6 months. Can't even force fetch until there adult teeth are in.

I agree ....

See quote above ......

You are right..... his dog is not a trained finished dog in 6 months, the dog is only 3 months old, he never stated his dog was finished. I stated, I have seen labs that where pretty much finished dogs at 6 months and just needed to be hunted for them to become better, I did say I had bird dogs, that would point, back, and retrieve and hunting at 6 months old.

I guess the best response to the person would have been an invite to a Retriever Club "Hunt" or ask to join a Retriever Club and get him involved in the sport and making him a better trainer....hell, he might be a great dog trainer as far I know and already be in a Retriever Club? Raymond knows nothing about me and what dogs I've been around ... The guy was asking for an opinion, help the guy out......I gave him my 2 cents worth, give yours. What type of breed do you have that is versatile, german shortair, lab, brittany....I've owned brittany's, pointers, english setters, labs, and golden retrievers, I love hunting dogs.

Show me a 6 month old dog that can run a walk up indented triple, with poison bird, and diversion, and cold in and out water blinds out to 300 yards, and lunch is on me.

Is it triples now for dogs to earn "Finished" now? I know there is a diversion involved.

Yes

That's the HRC Finished Hunt Test? Triples and over 300 yards?

That would probably never happen ....... I think your safe on the lunch :)

I have a german Wachtelhund.............

I know there are "some" dogs that can do all at six months......seen it.
But that is one in a 1000 labs I'de say.

You are right I should have offered my opinion. ..........I think she is too young.
I have also seen more puppies ruined by putting them in blinds with smoking guns that dogs trained at six months.

Look man, I respect the hell out of all the trainers, their indivicual methods and the committment it takes to get a dog passed.

I just see way way too many failed efforts of ametuers trying to live up to an expectation that is just too difficult to meet.

I have trained a golden, a boykin, a springer and now my wachtelhund (still)
I have had adequate dogs............functional for sure, polished not soo much.
With the boykin, the springer and now the wachtel.....it's not breeding. The genetics are there and that is why I have good solid dogs in the field.

I cannot stand seeing a dog with his head down and tail between his legs because he has been over stimulated by the collar, the hand, or the trainers mind.
Many of these CAN PASS and do PASS the trials, but they seem to me to hate doing it.
I would rather have a team mate then a slave any day.
Not implying you guys have those dogs at all. I have followed Raymond's threads and would feel comfotable with him trianing my dogs.

I am a huge fan of operant behavior training and somewhat follow Milner's methods.

Text rarely communicates well, so I mean do disrespect in any of these post at all.

I agree with you entirely......

It all boils down to what you want with your dog, and how far you want to take the dog. I have no problems with people that use force, electronic collars, etc., never had to use that on my dogs, but it is what it is, it gets results when in the hands of someone or a professional like Raymond who knows what they are doing, and an electronic collar can sure mess a dog up for someone that doesn't know what there doing. IF I was running a dog in HRC hunts, I would definetly force break the dog to retrieve. I also have no problems with people that want to train a dog without those tools or methods. I have seen great dogs that where trained both ways. I like the HRC and what it does and stands for, and it certainly has helped the retriever breeds and their bloodlines. It gives all types of people, kids, women, and men an opportunity to work their dogs, get some help and education on training your dog, plus it's fun to watch, and at the same time have some good companionship with people that like to do what you do.

I have a couple that can handle it but they aren't 6 months old, I like the Darrel's Special without Mayo and japaleno chips and a Shiner Bock.;)

My standards are quite extreme, probably more extreme than most all hunt test trainers. I no longer run hunt test but that is where I started but became disolussioned with the pay your fees and get a ribbon mentality. My training has evolved over the course of 14 years, no different than trucks, tractors, and beer (I like beer). Dogs have also evolved to be smarter, stronger and more capable through the various breeding programs which incorporate the best of the field trial world. Every new training approach has come from the Field Trial world which has in turn been passed down through the ranks to Hunt Testers and lower level pros (me). To say there are numerous ways to train a dog is true but if fraugt with perils. I will follow the top Pros through the fires of hell because their programs have produced the best year after year. Consistancy is the name of the game in any sport or business endevor so why wouldn't you hitch your wagon to someone who is the best year in and year out? Horses are great modes of transportation but nobody would dream of saddling up and driving one to Kalifornia. Ask Braquet,Cajunforeman,Gerldat, if their ideas changed when they saw what can be accomplished by following a True Training Program and pushing the envelop. I will be training dogs long after those of you who only hunt them are done simply because teaching a dog to pickup a 300-500 yd mark or blind really turns my Crank. Bet it would turn yours if you did it too.

Which is why someone said. "finished" is in the eye of the beholder. Some people are fine with throwing shell hulls or rocks and having there dog bring all their ducks back like that. I had a dog never trained and brought him out on a hunt and he picked up our 12 birds. It wasnt pretty but he did it. Was he finish? Lol no way. He wasn't even started!

Amen to that, program is need and follow it as it is the bible to dog training thanks to Ramond, by far is my dog hunt test material but will retrieve a 300 yard mark any day of the week. And I thank Ramond and cajunforeman for all the help and knowledge they provided.

I think you're preaching to the choir. I'm not the one who was disagreeing with you. I've seen plenty of dogs that can handle those types of setups too but they weren't 6 months old, so my lunch money is still safe!

could not agree more Raymond.........
I just don't see the need for 300 to 500 yard blinds or marks.
not saying it ain't cool and all, or even that that one time you need it...it's ain't worth it.

Just don't turn my crank..........
Now, writing a really nice six firgure order against my competition and making good margin on it??? That turns my crank.

I would love to be able to train my dog to do those things, really would, and I know he can learn them, just not what I am committed to.

Quaid does just fine............but I'm not running trials either.
I enjoy going and watching those that do though!
Again, admire the hell out of that.

One day when I retire maybe I can get it done.

It's all what ya want but I refuse to let incorrect statements stand as gospel. "Aluminum wire is just as good as Copper wire in a building".....My uncles cousins sisters brother in law said so.:D

Mechanically Declined Regards,

LOL.............sure is.........

All goes back to the time, energy, and the smartz of the dog. Some dogs devolpe and respond sooner and later than others. My dog is seven now so we are past all those training days and now its a pleasure to watch him work. I very seldom have to get out of my blind! And thats what matters to me.



"Just don't turn my crank..........
Now, writing a really nice six firgure order against my competition and making good margin on it??? That turns my crank."

This is also one of my biggest joys in life!

I am no Raymond, nor do I have the time to put into dogs like Raymond does but I do enjoy taking my dog to his full potentials. That could not have occured at 6 months. I do agree that this is off subject from the OP's question. Sure a dog could hunt and pick up ducks at 5 1/2 months like the OP's dog will be around opening weekend. However any correction to the dog could be a bigger negative then you ever planned. I will say that once I saw a "good" dog ( again in the eyes of the beholder) my standards of a "good" dog have changed, and I want one. Pedigree increases your chances of aquireing a potentially good dog but does not guarantee it. I still like the quote of a trainer I know that said 98% of waterfowl guides in SW LA don't know what a "good" dog is, of course others call them robots!

My lab sleeps in the bed, what do I win:rotfl:

Speaking of Omar D, does he still dog train. Have heard he was not scared to shock!