Keys to productive internet discussions
 

There are days on the forum when there is a lot of less useful information and a lot of wasted bandwidth. Here are some of my guiding principles for better discussion:

1. I try and distinguish between what I know from firsthand observation, what I know from reliable (usually published) sources, and what I "heard somewhere."
2. I try and clearly communicate my confidence level in information and/or conclusions.
3. I work hard to present the best facts possible without veering off into logical fallacies:

3A. A common fallacy is the ad hominem (at the man) attack. In legal cases, it is often said to argue the facts if they are on your side. If you don't have the facts supporting your case, argue the law if it is on your side. If you have neither the facts or the law, then attack the character of your opponent. Attacking the character of parties on the internet takes several forms such as insults, put downs, attribution of impure motives, etc.

3B. The straw man fallacy is mischaracterizing the essential points of your opponent's position to make it easier to discredit. Often a position is represented as more extreme than it actually is or peripheral issues are exaggerated as if they are essential to the opposing view.

3C. The burden of proof fallacy either shifts the burden of proof or demands a higher level of supporting evidence than is customary in supporting a position in a given field. For example, in criminal cases, the burden of proof is on the prosecution. In food safety, the burden of proof is often to show that food is safe for consumption. In most other areas of government regulation, the burden of proof is on the government to show compelling evidence that restrictions of individual liberty are both consistent with the US Constitution and necessary for the common good. We should always work to compel the government toward less regulation until compelling evidence is presented in need of more restrictive regulations. "Better safe than sorry" is a manipulative mindset for growing government and infringing liberty.

3D. The bandwagon fallacy suggests that a position must be correct because it has a lot of supporters.

3E. The appeal to authority fallacy suggests that a position must be correct because certain authorities have supported it without due consideration to the soundness of reasoning expressed by the authorities in support of a position.

3F. The appeal to fear suggests the negative consequences for not taking the advocated action overwhelm the weakness of the actual case supporting the advocated action.

There are lots of other logical fallacies that tend to detract from the productivity of discussions, but these are the prominent ones I've seen here. I won't pretend to be perfect in carrying out discussions, but I think if we work together we might improve our helping each other to reach common goals (catch more fish!) by working harder to implement these guidelines for improved civility and discourse.

well said

Got any Cliff Notes?

Giant walls of text are tough for office fisherman to read. Short posts are easier to sneak peeks at between spurts of work.

LMAO:*****:

Yes, most miserable thing I ever had to read lol. Lots of small text on a computer screen is tough on the eyes, throw in too much technical lingo and probably won't make it to the end.

Well put, a similar lact of Multivariant Analysis led Al Gore's to his solution for global warming: People are driving their cars more, cars produce CO2 which is a greenhouse gas, greenhouse gases produce global warming: therefore we must reduce your driving. There are fewer big trout being caught, the limit of trout was reduced, therefore the reduced limit caused fewer big trout so increase the limit. Maybe, but there are a lot more variables and I'll bet it is a lot more complex than that. Just my 2c.

The way I have heard the phrase used is "if the facts aren't on your side, argue the law. If the law isn't on your side, argue the facts. If you have neither the law or the facts on your side, pound the podium."

The podium pounding is the most entertaining option though.

I understand that pithy insults, flawed assertions, and fallacious sound-bites are easier than fact-filled, well-reasoned discourse.

More inquisitive minds who have time and interest will request that the subtleties be discussed more thoroughly and that some facts are further explored. Minds that are more rushed desire more of an executive summary to see if digging deeper is warranted when time permits.

I hope we all can resist the visceral satisfaction of generating heat rather than light at moments when we don't have sufficient time for more meaningful contributions.

there are some mighty big words being used here...........
can you guys dumb it down for me?

No lie, I like Mathgeek and the post are very informative but I am working with a high school education here..... I feel like I do at work when an engineer tries to explain a simple problem that he has complicated

MathGeek is way over qualified for saltycajun...


Good post dude your right

I find that pics of barely clothed women(hot ones!!) work best for my internet discussions...Certainly better than some kinda leegil stuph!

most discussions can be turned or resurected with a perfectly timed post of boobies..............

True dat

Yep, he is right but I have to read SEC ruling and new technical derivative literature on a daily basis. When I come to the net I like a nice short post. I stopped reading his post, they are great and all but way to long and make me feel like I am at work. I like that he continues to post because some people like that much details and we should have something for everyone.
[SIZE=3] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]Just being honest.[/SIZE]

X2

I don't feel like every time I post I need to let everybody know how smart I am

Isn't this what is happening when discussions degenerate to every post trying to come up with a better insult than the last?

I apologize if my posts have come across poorly. I'm a MathGeek, not a communications expert. I am working on improvement and appreciate input.

I think we can all do a few things to improve:

1. Stop the insults and stop repeating past transgressions of others. These generate all heat and no light.

2. Take the time to patiently explain once again subtle points that may have been missed by new participants.

3. Be quick to overlook offenses and do not ascribe to malice that which may be attributable to more pure motives.

4. Keep the discourse to facts and do not stoop to judging the motives of others.

What have you done with our RATDOG??????????????:D
Very good post MG

I can agree, overcoming pride and prejudice on the internet, doesn't happen easily! the facts are anyone can write just about anything without real consequences of there actions. I think people really do show some of there character on the internet, which in real life people may never question there integrity.

I get what you are saying math geek, I do. And its a good point, but look who you are talking to. This isn't a literary or a scholar forum. It's a hunting and fishing forum. We talk here like we are at the camp with the guys. We have only a handful of legitimate controversial discussions here, the most recent one you have been able to participate in. The rest is mostly bs people talk to get through the work day. You forget, some of us live in the same neighborhoods as the swamp people. How is that for perspective?

Easy Lake Chuck Duck, I live on a paved road and my toes ain't webed......but most of what he says is over my head and not because I am under 4' tall

Not tryin to hate, just tellin him to calm down a little. Untuck the shirt and loosen the tie, get comfortable......relax

3c
Good point some believe they are above the law. A big problem here in la.
Jus becouse u are an officer does not make u immune

Good post but the riff raff here do not believe in a community of tolerance and respect. Just the ability to sit back and sa awwwwwww I could have helped but why try.

I agree with ur post and feel it to be ashame that the concept of common decency has gone the way of da tird......it got flushed......awwwwwww.

Carma is a beach

Ratdog has spoken, Listen ya heard. Glad to have you back man. The life of the party!

I apologize, I did not word that post correctly. What I meant to say was, it is obvious you are an academic. I have relatives who are professors at various universities and they over explain things all the time because that is what they are used to doing in academia. I did not mean to come across as insulting you

Neither did I.

I vote Mathgeek and Ratdog for president, I really think they would be a good team and good mix

Maybe not, but you had a point. This site was originally made up of a small group of people who shared a common interest of not only hunting and fishing but also having a good time, which in certain instances equates to making fun of/poking jabs at one another. As the site grows I think it becomes increasingly difficult to "poke fun" of friends without others construing it the wrong way which undoubtedly happens.

Which is why EVERBODY needs to come out to the SC Tournament this year so they can get to meet this fine group of___________. (couldn't find the right word) ;)

Here we have it
If u ain't part of da bro hood were u can do as u pleas leaving all comman sence an laws behind.
U are subject to out right disrespect and ........

Bla bla bla again real shame.

No, I didn't say that, but you can interpret it how you want to.

Good day

O.k. Jus so u know us who are not bro pro or part of da small group do not consider our selves as friends.
Or might jus b me but why would I want to be friends with mean people.

So poke ur friends not people u don't know cuz u can.
Sho some respect !

I haven't met a single person on this site that anybody would consider mean. I think you may just be a little too sensitive there buddy. Yes the site is for information on fishing and hunting but is also to have fun.

Well said Tim
Like I tell my students and players all the time .....
"character = what you do and how you act when no one is looking";)

I think he is mainly refering to serious posts that require facts and not a whole pile of arm chair biologists. Like the lengthy discussion on trout limits. Not the everyday BS posts.

Sorry man but I consider bullying a mean thing to do.
An I met one person here in da flesh an I don't see him posting crap or calling names to people that ant in the in crowd.

And yes this is a bully sight.

Granted some are nice berry nice but whomever I am talking about seem to take great joy in beaing mean.

Case in point who whoud start a thread with my tag an put a crying face tag.

Or give crap to a guy trieing to help fix the problem this sight has with non productive babble designed jus to hurt .

I guess I'm done been back few hrs an bean reassured in what has happend before will happen again due to lack of learning from mistakes.

It's doomed.

My best outlook for this thing.

Enough of the negativity, 4,000 members were added this year and you all still keep coming back, why? Because this the best outdoors site on the net period and it has something for everybody. We can become perfectly pc but then we would loose sight of our idenitity and be like everyone else. Respect each other and everyone is fine. Having thick skin would help, as Meaux said I have also not yet met a mean person from this site, just the opposite actually.

Nope I got a pm notice.
Went check it an saw what I saw.
Sorry it's the truth as I see it .
Pull ref in pm for those who need it.
Not them trying to fix it unless u in the little group too.

You are entitled to your opinion and most people including me wanted to see you come back. That being said put the past behind you and be positive about being here. Negative people are a cancer that will kill any organization. Come back and be positive about being here or it is probably best that we part ways which I would hate because you are a likable guy. Again, welcome back.

Yes I agree but why allow your bro hood to continue as u do

Really man what am I suppose to think whin I see threads with my name an cry tags. Or the past as u put it were premium is paid for me so I can be bashed by da bros in da special click .

U tell me .....looks real bad to me.

An any clondike can act civil as we all should but u got problems with friends which can cause imbaris ment if u not carfule.

Might add I came here for friends an fish buddy's but da click dun run me of

Guess I didn't fit.

Ratdog, I've been here since 09 and don't burn anyone. I've been burned by several here but treat it like, "the drink is on me but, the joke is on them."

Don't sweat the small stuff...

Round 23679

Rat Dog returns, lighten up champ it's only the Internet.........theys some good people on this here site just sit back scroll around and learn to enjoy instead of *****ing about every post and thinking its directed at you as a means of hatred or bullying.
There is a saying goes something like this
If people **** with you it means they like you
If they don't **** with you then you
Might want to shag ***
Or something like that....

One of the members paid for your premium so you could get in the gill net and cutup with them. Everyone thought you liked to joke around like several people on here do.

Go and read the thread with your name, everyone in there talked about how much they missed your post and enjoyed you being around. The cry tag symbolizes someone being sad and was not a shot at you at all. You are well liked on the site ratdog. You do not want people to joke with you which you made clear so we as moderators and aminstrators will be watching to make sure you are treated fairly. If we failed you in the past on behalf of me and my team I can only apologize. At the end of the day moderation is my responsibility.

Thanks
Sorry

Come to the August 4th tournament and I will personally make sure you are in a boat with one of our members that knows the lake.

Don't be sorry ratdog everything is fine, welcome back.

My offer still stands, my boat is full but I'll give you a ride there if you need it.

Get him there and I will find him a spot, not a problem.

Thanks guys we will see things are different
I have just become a bit more reclusive due to stupid things .
And if I get out I will let u know.

Thanks again and ya I am sorry.